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Reply to topic GDR Forum Index -> Game Developer's Refuge -> VR, Virtual Reality, and the Oculus Rift Page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
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PoV
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was at Steam Dev Days a few weeks back. Totally sad that I missed my chance to see Valve's VR prototype (but holy hell, there were maybe slots for maybe 50 people, and over 1000 of us at the show).

I'm definitely sold on VR, but it's too soon for me to start.

I like what Valve has done API wise... which reminds me, now that the talks are public, I should share this:



Basically, Valve is making a push to become the de-facto VR platform.

More talks here: http://steamdevdays.com/
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Gil
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valve has been doing everything right for years now. I kinda trust em with junk.
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PoV
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some dude made a WebGL app for simulating the look of the current Rift Devkit (DK1), and the higher res ones, and a ballpark simulation of what low persistence on/off does.

http://mkeblx.net/oculus-rift-simulator/3jvgqnq3

Only beef is that the image isn't being resampled. It's just a grid overlay.
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Bean
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steam is looking more and more like the platform of choice.
Some of their implementations (based on the above video) are really clever and indeed help devs future proof their games. They've done a lot of work for us. It would be a waste to not take advantage.

-Bean
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PoV
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I ordered my DK2 while at GDC last week.



One of those.


Today, holy WTF, Facebook just bought Oculus for $2 Billion.

http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20140325-912577.html

In some sick and twisted way, this kinda makes sense. Cyberpunk literature seemed to suggest a Second Life/Facebook'ish "shared hallucination", so this might be some weird self fulfilling prophesy.
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Bean
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Da fuck?! I don't know how I feel about Facebook owning Oculus but I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I read that.


-Bean
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oculus Minecraft canceled as a result.


-Bean
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BadMrBox
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seriously thought it was a early april joke. Both that and that Disney bought the YT network that pewdiepie is a part of for $500m.

It's seriously odd world we live in.
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Alex
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prior to this, I felt the oculus was game oriented, but now with facebook it perceptually feels mainstream and non-game oriented. This could be good for bringing awareness to the vr system.. but.. part of me feels betrayed. I don't like facebook, I don't use it, so that feeling is starting to rub off onto things associated with it.
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PoV
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
part of me feels betrayed. I don't like facebook, I don't use it, so that feeling is starting to rub off onto things associated with it.

^ this.

I'm a little more relaxed about this today. If you think of Facebook as a conglomerate, like how Disney owns Marvel, Pixar, Jim Henson Studios, Lucasarts, and now Maker Studios (!?!), then it's less bad. If you think of them as a Microsoft though, a stupid company where things don't co-exist, but eventually streamline and become 'the one true path', then FACK! Or the middle ground like Google (things exist as long as they're still profitable). Honestly though, I don't know what they are. So far, Instagram doesn't require a Facebook account, and still runs autonomously, but I quote "We have not once bought a company for the company. We buy companies to get excellent people." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitions_by_Facebook

I still believe in VR, and it seems Zuckerberg does too. There's no reason to kill the Rift, but the focus will definitely switch to general consumers faster than anticipated.

This ordeal has taken some of the magic out of the whole VR revolution for me. I completely shrugged off Sony's effort, which I now regret not making an effort to try Morpheus last week.
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Sirocco
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well shit, I didn't see that coming.

I'm a lot less interested now. But they won't be the only players in the VR space. Others will pop up eventually. Sony's stab at VR is promising, but not so much if it's tied solely to their gaming platforms. The nice promise of Rift was that it was platform-agnostic.
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Gil
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's too early :/

This makes me feel dread.
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Sirocco
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Abrash has joined Oculus. So that's Carmack and Abrash back at the same table. Interesting... but not enough to make me abandon all skepticism, of which I have no shortage ;)

Still, I've read two of Abrash's books, and if nothing else the guy is great at explaining concepts.
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PoV
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah geez. Carmack, Abrash and a dude Atman Binstock whom I used to work with (all 3 were made "big deals" of).
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XMark
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Facebook acquisition isn't necessarily a bad thing. If they're smart they'll keep their hands off and let the Oculus guys do their own thing, maybe make some kind of Oculus-integrated social networking thing that's completely optional and not required for its gaming uses. Although "if they're smart" could potentially be a very big if... we'll just have to see.

I was thinking of ordering the new dev kit, but I'll hold strong and wait for the commercial release. I mean, we need some time for actual developers to get the thing and program for its new positional tracking. Getting a dev kit at this point, there just won't be enough content that takes full advantage of its hardware. Anyway, word on the street is that even with its higher resolution, dev kit 2 still has a "screen door" effect, so hopefully the commercial release is even higher-resolution.
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Alex
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how addicting VR will become if it gets to a point where you're fully absorbed within the experience.. Are people going to fall asleep while in the experience and have an alarm clock within the experience, or some npc come and wake you up?.. Plus you'll have the augmented reality where you can change the way your whole living space looks- it's going to become increasingly difficult to live without it strapped to your head if it becomes addicting.
It's weird to think about such extremes.
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XMark
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being the Virtual Boy and 10 being The Matrix, it looks like the upcoming generation of VR headsets would rank maybe a 3. There's tons of major obstacles on the way to complete immersion. Here's the order I think they'll get completed in

next five years
Display covers entire field of vision
4K resolution becomes standard
Head tracking and positional tracking are perfected
All issues pertaining to image persistence are resolved

next ten years
Display resolution high enough to be indistinguishable from reality
No more bulky screens - all VR headsets now use retinal projection and look like large sunglasses rather than dorky headsets
Companies start trying to face the issue of focal depth, with workarounds involving eye tracking

next fifteen to twenty years
True holographic projection resolves the issue of focal depth, so your eyes can finally converge and focus on the same thing
Real-time computer graphics finally leap all the way over the uncanny valley

At this point, the visual side of VR will basically be perfected, getting us to about a 6 on the immersion scale, assuming there are advances in surround sound audio and control interfaces that mirror the advances in display tech.

That's probably all the immersion we'll ever want or need (we don't really want to smell what's in VR or feel like we're being shot in a game), but there's a whole extra order of magnitude needed if you wanted VR immersion capable of fooling someone completely into believing that it's real. Like, if they eat a virtual cake they feel full afterwards, that kind of immersion. That won't be possible until we can plug our brains directly into computers.

Yeah, it's fun thinking these kinds of things all the way through to their theoretical limits :)
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PoV
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True 3D surround sound is Ambisonics. This stuff has existed since the 70's, so were talking more than 40 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambisonics

Somehow Dolby and the variant systems like 5.1, DTS, and so on became the norm. I suppose that made sence we only ever looked in one direction, we could place higher quality speakers in certain positions, but now IMO this Ambisonics stuff is in dire need for a comeback.

* * *

Also I'm not even sure Virtual Boy deserves to be on the list. ;)

It's worth noting that 4k is actually about 2k by 2k per eye. The upcoming Rift DK2 is about 1k by 1k (960x1080). The original DK1 was about 640px by 720px (~.6k), so a mere 30%-40% better. Plus the list of modern games that run >60 FPS at 4k are quite short.

The other key problem isn't even the resolution, but the space between pixels. This was the one advantage some folks were saying the Morpheus had. Blurrier (better than the DK1), but less pixel gaps.

I had the opportunity to see both the Valve system (Steam Dev Days), and the Morpheus (GDC), but didn't. I did see the DK2, and it was kind of what I was expecting, which made it a bit of a disappointment. My biggest annoyance was the motion blur, and that was fixed. Resolution looked a little better, but I may have been too busy noticing my face being burned by the cleaning chemicals.

Also I think Eve Valkyrie is lousy. Ironically, too much focus on making a game, not enough on immersion I think. Frame rate issues, most of your time spent looking at small aimer dots near the center of your view. Poorly calibrated controls.

Really though, I think the VR goggle part is at a stage where it's usable now. The problem I see now: Controls are terrible.

And that, I think will be the thing holding us back in the near term: figuring out how to move in VR. It doesn't help that you can no longer see your hands, nor what you're touching.

* * *

I've dabbled with the Kinect, the Leap Motion, and Intel's Perceptual Computing Camera. I think they're all terrible. This is due to latency, poor poor noisy physical models, but most importantly: waving your hands around to do thing is completely unnatural. You wave your hands around to communicate, do martial arts and dance, not to get things done. Minority Report should shut up and die.
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Sirocco
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

The problem I see now: Controls are terrible.


Not to mention that there's no way of seeing where your hands are. So games with a lot of hotkeys are out.
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PoV
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's definitely one of the reasons. :)
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sonrisu
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole FaceBook thing made me sad. Just seems like a very odd acquisition.

I think the whole VR thing is novel, but just like "motion gaming", it'll fizzle out in over this generation?

On top of that, you have the whole double-edged sword problem:

1. Right now, it's just for your head. It's weird to not include the rest of your body
2. Once it includes the rest of your body, you can't forget that humans are lazy and don't want to move around in order to play a game.

:]
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BadMrBox
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sonrisu wrote:
I think the whole VR thing is novel, but just like "motion gaming", it'll fizzle out in over this generation?

I would tend to agree with you. I personally cant see myself strapping on any of the current bulky VR machines and play for long periods. The novelty of it would grow old rather quickly I think and then the gear would collect dust in the corner. Note that I still not have tested OR... when I do I might think it's the best thing that have happened since bacon but my instinct tells me otherwise.

And... the best control option with a headpiece on must be a gamepad and that sucks if you want to play a FPS. Hm... or maybe a nunchuck for movement and a mouse for the weapon aiming.

Meh, ignore me. I'm tired and doped up on meds.
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sonrisu
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You bring up a another good point about long period of play. Whatever headset you use, I imagine fatigue will set in quickly. I find even many pairs of headphones start to hurt your head (especially top of head where the headband rests) if you wear them for long periods of time, and those must weigh much less than a VR unit.

I suppose one shouldn't just play so damn long in such long sprints, but still. :]
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PoV
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideally, a headset should be no less comfortable than wearing a hat, and people wear hats for a long time.

But ya, eye fatigue will be a thing, but that's a thing with computers in general.
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sonrisu
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideally. But what I see today is it's more like wearing a hat with a brick attached to the rim. That, and you have a surface touching and pressing against the front of your face.

Not to mention how is this going to feel when it's mashing up against your glasses (for those that need eyewear)?

Lots of comfort issues to solve.
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