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Sirocco
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn you people, releasing all your goodness around the same time ^____^
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BadMrBox
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sonrisu wrote:
Indeed. The fix for this won't be coming very soonish, so you'll have to deal with keyboard for now. Sorry. :[

I'm going to try my old xbox controller and see if that works (if I find the drivers for it).

sonrisu wrote:
Getting reports of lagging sound in Win7. Anyone on an older version of windows? Getting sound lag? Easiest way to test is to just move the menu selection around in the title screen.
I'm on win7 and did not notice any lagging sound.
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sonrisu
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really? That's very interesting. Seems like I'm going to need to add in sound quality configuration. I used to have this, but ditched it because I didn't think it was necessary. Guess it is. :]
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0xDB
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Downloaded! Will try sometime later this weekend.
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0xDB
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warning, I'm just grumpy and I find it hard to enjoy things these days:

Tried it now and spent quite some time going back and forth around in large empty areas (which frankly started to get boring pretty quickly and after some time I turned off the music which felt too repetitive to me) until I figured out what to do with the eggs.

I even restarted once because I thought I had broken something which prevented me from progressing.
I think there needs to be a stronger audiovisual hint to signal to the player that a group of eggs has reached their final state, maybe they could do some sort of synchronized glowing action or something and a visible counter with an egg symbol could appear for a moment. That counter should use the same graphics as the door, so it's easier to make the connection between them. Also, I think the door should open when it becomes visible on screen as I kept coming to the door screen checking if it was already open without touching it though, so I kept going back and running around in those large empty areas trying to figure out what to do.

I think I found a problem/bug with the button remapping:
I've set my keys to j,i,l (left, jump, right) and 'a' for action. I came across a hint sign which upon activation by the action button said <- Exit. I could not leave the hint sign screen by pressing the action button again and had to press Enter instead to leave it.

Another bug I noticed was the name of the starting area never vanishing from the bottom of the screen until leaving to the next map but upon reentering it was there again (I experienced this after going to the menu and starting a new game when I thought I was stuck).

Now I don't want to be all negative and there were some things I enjoyed: I liked the way the title screen sets a dreamy mood with the silhouette of the land and the main character and the clouds slowly drifting by and I absolutely love the little bird creatures which populate the world here and there and how they shew away when the player comes near a group of them or how they sometimes randomly start chirping.

One other thing: I could not find how to save my game after I got through the first egg door. I haven't played more than that afterwards because I read there is no reward at the end yet so I felt no incentive to go along. ^^

append:
One more: On the "Loading" screen, in Windows 7 (haven't checked other versions) the windows title says "not responding" for a while and the cursor turns into the idle cursor. This could be a problem because windows usually decides to kill unresponsive processes after some time (so on slow machines... this could really be a problem). This can probably be fixed by processing the event queue even during loading and without doing anything on any key/mouse whatever input.
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PoV
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harsh critique is a good thing. If it hurts to hear, it's right. :)
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Sirocco
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I initially had a hard time getting the program to run, but I guess I've gotten past whatever was giving it a problem. I tried launching a new game, and it would crash while loading... ~50% of the way through the load sequence. The log file stopped at:

Quote:

Resource Manager Texture Dictionary: ollerGreen.png doest not exist. Loading it.
Trying to find ollerGreen.png in ./data
Resource: loading ./data/sprites/oller/ollerGreen.png


Eventually I set the game to fullscreen, and for whatever inconceivable reason it decided it wanted to work. Whether that was the issue, or it just liked that I kept trying to load it... I dunno. It also did the same thing on my laptop (both running XP) but it finally worked in Windowed mode after the third try.

I'm wondering if this is a path issue. As soon as I moved the game from D: to C: it started behaving better.

Any way, I just got into it so I don't have much to mention yet. I did run into a spot where I remapped my jump and action keys to Z and X, then got stuck in the save menu. I could save, but couldn't get out of the menu.
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sonrisu
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allright! This is the kind of feedback I was hoping for, grumpy or non. I need to know what's lacking so I can try to fix it as best possible.

Dennis:
Quote:
Tried it now and spent quite some time going back and forth around in large empty areas (which frankly started to get boring pretty quickly and after some time I turned off the music which felt too repetitive to me) until I figured out what to do with the eggs.

Two things here. 1: I was afraid the world would seem too big and empty in certain parts. What would make it feel less empty? More critters? I don't want it to feel crowded, though. Perhaps collectible items scattered throughout (there are some, but these are more hidden/secret). I did want the world to feel big, so I guess I achieved that one! ;]

2: I think your suggestion for the Negg sad->happy needs great consideration. To me, it seemed obvious since I know what's going on. I haven't had the pleasure of someone who has no clue trying to figure things out. I was trying to use the teardrop to indicate they are sad. When they become happy, no more teardrop. I can probably change their sprite to some other color, or have them make a sound, or something. Need some time to think about that one.

For the doors, you can check your progress for how many things you've made happy using the in game menu. It will give you "Made Happy / Total". This is how I intended for players to keep track with regards to the doors. Not sure how I feel about the proximity issue. Were you expecting it to just be open by the time you walked to it, or open immediately when it is visible on the screen? I wanted players to watch it open.

Quote:
I've set my keys to j,i,l (left, jump, right) and 'a' for action. I came across a hint sign which upon activation by the action button said <- Exit. I could not leave the hint sign screen by pressing the action button again and had to press Enter instead to leave it.

Again, two things. 1: That's the save-game console. 2: Yes, the key remapping is a bug. Will fix!

Quote:
Another bug I noticed was the name of the starting area never vanishing from the bottom of the screen...

Noted. Have a good idea what's going on there.

Quote:
I absolutely love the little bird creatures

Great! I had hoped this would stave off the feeling of being lost/getting bored/etc while walking around trying to figure out what to do. Perhaps I should try creating many more critter types to keep things fresh throughout the world?

Quote:
One other thing: I could not find how to save my game after I got through the first egg door.

That was the wall outlet socket thing you thought was a hint sign screen. The default option is to exit. Perhaps I should make the default be a new save if there are no previous saves. It will default to the last selection if you've made at least one selection, though.

Quote:
the windows title says "not responding" for a while and

It's a blocking loop where I flush drawing to the screen. Should be straightforward to process the loop every now and then so the app doesn't go unresponsive.

Sirocco:
Quote:
... it would crash while loading... The log file stopped at:

Log file didn't complain about not being able to load stuff? That's funky. I wonder if the texture loading routines were exploding. Not sure how to debug this. How much VRAM do you have?

Quote:
I could save, but couldn't get out of the menu.

Yeah. Same key remapping bug Dennis was having. When in doubt, use the Enter key to select stuff. That should always work in addition to the action key (once fixed!)

@PoV: Indeed. I actually want more people to be grumpy while playing. That way I can get the truth, and make the game fun.

***

Overall, thank you. I need moar, though. :] Play!

Dennis, should I send you a save file that has the first portion of the game completed? I would hate to make you play through all of it again just so you can experience the other areas with more than just Neggs. And that's hoping you'll play more, too. ;]
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Sirocco
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Log file didn't complain about not being able to load stuff? That's funky. I wonder if the texture loading routines were exploding. Not sure how to debug this. How much VRAM do you have?


Nope. There were plenty of things in the log file about the cache, but the last message was always like that. Sometimes the filename would be different, though.
I have 512 MB vram on my laptop, and 1 GB on my desktop.
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sonrisu
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should be enough. Can you attach in GDB and do a backtrace? The symbols should be there -- would be good to know where it's dying, but my guess is in SMTexture::loadImage.
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Sirocco
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll see what I can do in a little bit. I was playing with it again for a few minutes, and got a crash when I tried to open the save point (first one a few screens to the right). The log file sez:

Quote:

Trying to find arnion4 in ./data
Adding object at 0xaa18c0 to map specific object vector
Adding object at 0xaa2e50 to map specific object vector
Adding object at 0xaa3ec0 to map specific object vector
Adding object at 0xab3f30 to map specific object vector
Adding object at 0xab3d90 to map specific object vector
Trying to find loadExitBackground.png in ./data


Dunno if that means anything to you. It dropped out without even showing the save menu. I also don't know if this is an intentional thing, but your parallax scrolling appears to be backward on both axes. When you're moving around, the clouds in the background follow you instead of slowly scroll away like the rest of the landscape.
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sonrisu
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the clouds in the background follow you instead of slowly scroll away like the rest

Changes per map. Haven't noticed it looking totally screwed up. Can you take a snap with the map up so I can see which one I need to fix? [edit] Oh, might depend on which way you're moving. It doesn't reverse.

[edit2] Oho! I found out what the crashing bug is. Sirocco, no need to try debugging (since no symbols were enabled, anyway). Will be getting a fix for that and uploading new binaries.
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sonrisu
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Binaries updated (Mac | Win).

What's fixed:
- Texture loading crasher
- Configured action key will perform confirmation actions in save/load game browser, menu, and can also be used to skip the logo screen (in addition to Return/Enter)
- False-hang while starting new game

How to migrate your saves:
- Copy the contents of data/saves to the newly downloaded bundle
- On OSX the data folder is located inside the application bundle
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Sirocco
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crash and save seems to be fixed, which is good news. I also forgot to mention I have the sound lag problem others have reported. It seems to be about a half second lag before any effect is triggered. Most noticeable in menus, but I can sense it when the player is walking as well (footsteps).

As for the parallax, I was thinking of the clouds in the first few 'rooms'. They move in the same direction as the player, which looks odd.
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mikedoty
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might consider experimenting with lowering the size of your sound buffer (if you're using SDL for your audio) to get rid of the sound lag. I did that with my last release with good results.
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BadMrBox
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does have a bit of a sound lag. Not much thought. The footsteps are most noticeable. The music on the other hand stops completely after the track have played once.

The saving menu is quite confusing. It took me awhile to figure out that I had to press enter. Might consider mapping it to the actionbutton or something?

I have no idea what to do with the Flowrians :(
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sonrisu
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The music on the other hand stops completely after the track have played once.

This is on purpose. There's silence between repeat of songs. Did it bother you?

Quote:
Might consider mapping it to the actionbutton or something?

Yeah, everyone was reporting this. It has since been fixed. If you redownload it should work as expected. :]

Quote:
I have no idea what to do with the Flowrians :(

Need to explore a bit more. Can't do much with them yet.

Quote:
You might consider experimenting with lowering the size of your sound buffer (if you're using SDL for your audio) to get rid of the sound lag. I did that with my last release with good results.

The buffer is already 512, which is tiny. I'm not sure going lower is going to help much? Although, the sound quality is 44 instead of 22. I wouldn't think that a modern machine would choke with those settings. Apparently, some do -- seems to be only Win7, however. In any case, instead of scratching my head wondering why it stutters at those settings, I will just add a sound quality config in the options menu, probably set up like this

Low = 22, 512
Medium = 44, 512 // I want this to be default
High = 44, 1024

What settings were working well for you?
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0xDB
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not sure how I feel about the proximity issue. Were you expecting it to just be open by the time you walked to it, or open immediately when it is visible on the screen?

Yes I expected it to open when it became visible. To ensure players watch that, they could be relieved of control for a moment while the camera concentrates on showing the opening door until it's half open and then give back the controls to the player.

Quote:
Perhaps I should try creating many more critter types to keep things fresh throughout the world?
Yes, something needs to be done about the large emptyness. More varied background graphics might even help with that already.

Quote:
Dennis, should I send you a save file that has the first portion of the game completed? I would hate to make you play through all of it again just so you can experience the other areas with more than just Neggs. And that's hoping you'll play more, too. ;]
I'll play it some more (already dl'd the fixed version) as soon as I find some time. I'll just replay that first part (shouldn't take too long now that I know what to do).
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Sirocco
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my system it doesn't stutter or sound unusual, but there is an ~0.5 second delay between when a sound effect should start, and when it does.
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mikedoty
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What settings were working well for you?


pygame.mixer.pre_init(frequency=22050, size=-16, channels=2, buffersize=4096)
pygame.mixer.pre_init(44100, -16, 2, 512)

I guess we're using the same sound buffer size.

"The size argument represents how many bits are used for each audio sample. If the value is negative then signed sample values will be used. Positive values mean unsigned audio samples will be used. An invalid value raises an exception."

I reckon that means I'm using signed 16 bit samples.

I figured it might be the same (pygame is just an SDL wrapper really), but maybe not. I do know that the method I employed served more as a workaround (albeit effective) than as a solution.
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0xDB
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played some more now and I noticed I too have the sound lag problem (I didn't notice this before it was mentioned here though).

Also, now the area names do not ever seem to show up at all.

I like how there is more variation to the music further down in the world.

Main problem is still all that large empty space which even if there were some collectibles would still seem empty and repetitive to walk/jump through while going back and forth between already visited areas.

Maybe there could be a quick-travel system to allow the player to teleport from any savepoint to any other (already explored) savepoint?

Maybe the map could also show any "unfinished business" as little red dots (or maybe as a dot in a different color per species) so the player does not have to recall where he still needs to go back to, to do something.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is on purpose. There's silence between repeat of songs. Did it bother you?
Well, it never repeats. Once the music is over the only place I ever hear music again is at the main menu.
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PoV
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you using the Mercurial (Hg) version of SDL yet, or just the "stable"?
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BadMrBox
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nevermind. I was a dumbass and hadnīt downloaded the latest zip.
Now the music does loop for me.
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sonrisu
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using stable SDL.
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