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PoV
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:49 pm    Post subject: Development Gear (Commodore 64, NES, and more) Reply with quote

Howdy.

I'm going to tell you about a little pet project of mine. It's long term, something I plan to do between projects that actually make me some money. I'd like to write and run code (game/demo) on every gaming platform that's influenced me. My list is extensive, but that includes systems like the NES, SNES, and Genesis. Platforms I've commercially worked on including the Gameboy, Gameboy Advance, and Playstation. And my first computer, the Commodore 64.

A lot of work can be done on emulators, but the point really is to run it on a real system. Ideally I'd like to be able to send binaries directly to the system, but I'll settle for flash carts/discs if there's no other option. I'd also like a way to communicate directly with a PC for debugging (write to a debug console, or send information to GDB).

So to do that, I'm going to need hardware. Official kits are extremely difficult to come by (and expensive), so unofficial will have to do. I've been collecting since back in 2000, so I have a few things you can't get anymore (Dreamcast, N64, Gameboy, Neo Geo Pocket, WonderSwan), but I'm still missing the means for many systems.

Anyways, the point of this post is I don't trust my bookmarks, and maybe there might be some interest in this stuff. I've omitted current systems 'cause its not right, and they're really not on the agenda. Modern systems all have good graphics hardware, not much different than working on the PC (may as well get paid doing it). I've been putting off posting something like this for a while, but I suspect that today, most people that play old games get a better experience on emulators and virtual console. So I figure the gear's only meaningful to collectors and developers now.

The problem is the sources for this "stuff" has a tendency to disappear. Be it because they were a limited run, or due to their gray nature.

Most of this stuff isn't cheap. If it's just a wire, it'll be around $20. If it's anything more than that, it'll be up to or more than $100. Used real kits cost anywhere from $400 up, and are next to impossible to find.


-- Commodore 64 --
X1541 Cable
XE1541 Cable
XM1541 Cable
XA1541 Cable - All 4 are "Commodore Serial->PC Parallel Port" adapters. Each is a little more reliable than the last, but some software only works with X and XE cables. But at the same time, you need an older PC to use the earlier ones. There are schematics to build each, but you can find pre-built ones on eBay. One I just ordered (eBay) is a pre-built board with jumpers that switch between XE and XM modes.

MMC2IEC C64 Drive Emulator (US/Canada Sales Link) - Emulates a C64 Floppy drive using MMC or SD memory cards.

MMC Replay - An EXT port cart with pausing/reset features, MMC/SD memory card slot for running apps, and optional network adapter. Rather pricey (especially with network adapter), but this might be more up my alley as an idealistic development tool. Network remote debugging plugin available. :)

1541 III - Also tries to emulate a C64 floppy drive, but an older design.


-- Atari --
There's a bunch of stuff here, including a Colecovision cart, but no 2600 stuff.

I've seen schematics too, but there doesn't seem to be much other than DIY. Mind you, I'd imagine the 2600 might be one of the easiest systems DIY a cart for.


-- Sega Master System / Mark III --
Only this.


-- Sega Game Gear --
Only this.


-- Sega Genesis / Mega Drive --
Transfer Suite - Schematic. A simple (i.e. no caps or resistors needed) transfer cable for a Genesis. Plugs in to your 2nd controller port. To run apps, it requires a boot disc (aka Sega CD).

Serial EXT Port - The original "fat" Genesis has a serial port. Some of them have a connector, others are missing the port (but it's still on board, and easily soldiered to). Strangely though, I've not found any information or existing tools yet for communications using that port. EDIT: Essentially, it's exactly the same as a controller port, only short 2 resistors. In theory you could add one directly off the controller chip. However, no point really, especially since above is fine, unless you "need" multiplayer.

And this, or this.


-- Sega Saturn --
USB Data Link Cable - Connects via an Action Replay cart to your system. Supposed to let you send small apps to the cart to be executed. I have one on the way.

Action Replay - Some fake action replays are missing the data port, but the manufacturer of the data cable suggests this store as legit.


-- Sega Dreamcast --
Coders Cable - Schematic. You can't really find these, or any source cables anywhere anymore (anything that plugs in to the DC serial port). It's a serial cable for connecting a Dreamcast to a PC serial port, letting a coder do anything you'd every want to do to a Dreamcast. I have one from way back. Today, you'd probably have to solder directly to the connector, or remove it and add a DB-9 serial port in it's place.

Network Adapter - You can't really find these either. A standard Sega Network adapter, to replace your modem. There's identical software for this as the Coders Cable, and it's much faster. I *wish* I had one of these. ;)


--TurboGrafx 16 / PC Engine --
Only this and this.


-- NES --
USB Addon Board - A bit of a serious mod, but it adds a USB port to a standard "Toaster" NES. Not cheap, but needed for the next one.

PowerPak Lite - RAM Cart (which means once you turn it off, the data on it dies). It's not really designed to support many mappers, nor does it need to. Programmed via USB by the Addon board.


-- Gameboy --
There also used to be a lot of cart systems. I've not looked, 'cause I already have a few.

Communication wise, I've actually built an adapter to connect an AT/PS2 keyboard to a Gameboy, so there's probably something that can be done via the Gameboy serial port.


-- SNES --
There used to be a lot of systems. Many having a floppy drive built in. I picked up a Super UFO from a local game shop. Not much of anything anymore, but there's this.


-- N64 --
There used to be a lot of systems. V64's, Z64's, CD64's. I managed to pick up a V64jr while they were still available. I also have a real dev kit.


-- Playstation --
There's a port on the back of older PS1's. You can plug an "Action Replay" like cart in to the back of the system, flash the firmware, and use the integrated port to communicate with the system. Unfortunately, despite it looking like parallel port, I've only seen this paired with a bizarre "high speed parallel port" ISA card. I think I "hoped" it could work on a normal parallel port, but I've not found a way yet.

EDIT: It seems the port on Action Replay and clone carts are not parallel. However the Xplorer/Xploder is parallel. So far, I've only found a UK shop, and Amazon.co.uk.

Serial Cable - Schematics for a cable, but I don't think I've ever seen a source for any wire that plugs in to a PS1. Might have to solder directly to it, or remove it and add a DB-9 serial port in it's place.


And that's what I've got.
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Edited by PoV on Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:33 pm; edited 6 times
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Adam C. Clifton
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The IS Viewer looks nifty.
No Net Yaroze for Playstation dev?
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PoV
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There as hard to come by as real kits. Actually, real kits are easier to find. :)
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n29
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have psx dev libraries and a cross compiled version of gcc on an old computer, not yaroze, something based on yaroze I believe. Haven't looked at it in a while. Never got around to experimenting with it. The hardware was pretty cool on those.

To use the port you had to get one of the very early machines, it has 'x' in the serial number or something.

Dreamcast dev: I never found anything on the net that provided highlevel access to the 3d; 2d yes, 3d, no.

I never found anything for n64 dev either.

Apparently I spent some time on this a couple of years ago...
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PoV
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

n29 wrote:
To use the port you had to get one of the very early machines, it has 'x' in the serial number or something.

Yeah. I was able to pick up a SCPH-5501 with the port way back when. I'm not sure if it's the X you're thinking of, but I've seen Playstations referred to as 500x, 550x, 700x, and so on, where the X meant your region. 0 - Japan, 1 - North America, 2 - Europe, 3 - Asia.

Quote:
Dreamcast dev: I never found anything on the net that provided highlevel access to the 3d; 2d yes, 3d, no.

I think the only way to get an API for 3D was with the official SDK. I think I've seen the Saturn's 3D API was reverse engineered, but not the Dreamcasts.

Quote:
I never found anything for n64 dev either.

It was scarce, most of it was based around backup units. The community of merit was Dextrose.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget Dreamcast VMU development via http://booyaka.com/games/vmu/index.html While it's not necessarily programming a console, it was still pretty cool to make this work and have fun creating little graphical adventure games.
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PoV
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got my XE/M1541 adapter for the Commodore 64 in the mail today, and gave it a spin. Took a little bit of effort, but I managed to get 64HDD working on my old 300mhz laptop running Windows 98. It's basically a piece of software that has a computer emulate the function of a standard Commodore 64 floppy drive.

I had to boot in to DOS mode to make it work, then tried a few games on it. Fist II, ConQuest, Commando, Jumpman, Metal Warrior 1 and 3 worked great. Neuromancer did the title screen, and that was it. Apparently it tries to reprogram the floppy (64HDD software beeps whenever the system tries to do something it doesn't know how to do. Buddy was too lazy to add a 6502 emulator to it). Cool stuff.

Load time is roughly the same as a C64. I didn't have much luck with it's built in accelerators, but then I didn't really try more than a couple times.


I also finally got my hands on a Sega Saturn, so I was able to try out the USB Data Link + Action replay combo. It works, but it took nearly half an hour to upload a 512k app. It's a start.


I've also picked up a NES, Genesis (2 of 'em), and a 32x (all for $60). I just don't have a way to test on these yet (and I've spent enough money for this month).


System wise, still need (want) a TurboGrafx 16 and a Sega CD.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it a Sega Saturn Shiro?
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PoV
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably not. Just a plain old domestic North American Sega Saturn.
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PoV
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that I'm finally not sick, I was able to go out and pick up a used Commodore 64. My C64's floppy is misaligned, and I still can't find instructions how to align it. So I picked up a used C64 system locally with 2 floppies.

Specifically:
- Commodore 64 (the magic keyboard thing)
- 2x "1541" Floppy Drives
- Tape Drive (I never owned one of these)
- Printer (*shrug* Cool, I guess)
- 2x Atari Joysticks (yeah, I know Atari joysticks aren't that good)
- Manuals (All but the tape manual in good shape)
- Box of floppies (Looks like a few things the owner might not have wanted to share)

All for $50, and a short drive outside the city.

So some time this week, the plan will be to finally dig out my C64 floppies, and back everything that still works up. I've had this C64 Serial -> parallel port adapter for a couple weeks now. It's taken me maybe 8 years (since my floppy screwed up) to finally get everything I need to do this. Whee.


I'm "negotiating" right now with a kid to get a Sega CD. Still trying to find a deal on a TurboGrafx 16.
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PoV
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Backing up a floppy works. Not sure how good the image of the disk is. Three of the games found on it work (Buck Rogers, Miner 2049'er, and some music application). Buck Rogers has a glitched graphic in it, so I don't know if that's me or not. I didn't pay much attention to how long it took, but it might have been 15 minutes or so for the whole disk. This is C64 floppy hooked directly up to the PC via the XE1541 adapter. DOS mode again.

So now I gotta go find my disks in storage.


Sega CD kid accepted my offer ($30 for Sega CD, 3 games, and a controller). Hopefully I'll have that tomorrow.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, I wish I had all my old discs with the tons of programs I made. Oh well. Remakes!

Have you tried 64HDD under DosBox?
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PoV
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not yet. I've written it on my whiteboard as something try. The issue though is it needs to be perfectly in sync, with no risk of multitasking, otherwise 64HDD will fail and cries itself to sleep. I had to run Star Commander under DOS as well, to correctly back up a floppy.

Worst case, there's always these.

http://www.nkcelectronics.com/mmc2iec-commodore-disk-drive-emulation-devic.html

This might have potential one day too... though I'm expecting it to be expensive.

http://commodore-gg.hobby.nl/innovatie_1541kaart_eng.htm

Supposed to fully emulate the 1541, 6502 and all.

[EDIT] Better link. $190!


Got the Sega CD. Needs cleaning. :)
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bah! Picked up a PC Engine Duo-R (TurboGrafx 16 with CD-ROM built in). Didn't include a video cable, so I had to spend a couple hours building one. Bah!

Now I find out that the stupid thing wont power on. Bah!

Then I discover it's not uncommon that TG16's/PCE's need repair. Double bah! Patiently waiting since yesterday to be authorized on that forum so I can seek repair advice. Bah!


Something positive at least. The SegaCD works well. :P
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When are you going to line all of this stuff up together and take a picture for us?
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PoV
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wowza... good point. :)

Here's an old photo of hardware bits. Carts and kits that I have. I don't have enough room on my media stand to hold all the game systems, but I might be able to arrange them on a table.


EDIT: Yeah, got the PC Engine Duo to work. I'd already replaced the power connector, and bought the needed stronger power supply, but I guess I just didn't know how to test the system. ;)

The other problem is either the video cable I made, or my video port is bad. The video port is loose, but I know the craftsmanship that went in to that cable isn't that high, so it could be either.

I also discovered the controller port may have a problem too. Right and the B button don't do anything. Oh well. It's a fix-r-upper. I've been making a list of parts that I'm going to need to upgrade/make better cables for all these systems. Guess that means adding PCE controller port to the list. ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



From left to right, top row:
- Old style Commodore 64 (the one I bought recently), two floppy drives (one twist lock, one center lock)
- Newer style Commodore 64 (the computer I grew up with), one broken floppy drive
- N64 with IS-Viewer Card (i.e. Dev kit)
- Playstation 1 with Parallel Port in new blue case (My old PS1, but case modded recently)

Middle row:
- Commodore 64 Tape Drive (came with the system I bought recently)
- Sega Saturn
- Sega Dreamcast

Bottom row:
- Super Nintendo with Super UFO (floppy drive ram unit)
- NES (with replacement connector inside for better contacts)
- PC Engine Duo-R (Japanese TurboGrafx-16 with built in CD-ROM)
- Sega Genesis type 2, with Sega CD addon, and a 32x in top
- Sega Genesis type 1 (type 1's have the Sega Master System hardware built in too)


Not shown: All last and current gen systems.


Collection needs: Atari 2600. I need to figure out which one to buy. And perhaps a TurboGrafx 16, but I may just do the switch mod to the PC Engine Duo-R.
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Edited by PoV on Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:25 am; edited 3 times
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mentioning the Atari makes me want to hook mine up and play the plethora of games that I happen to have for it. While it's not mine (it's my brother's) it is hanging around in my house (not his). Hmm. AFAIK the connector for video out is totally hosed, though. This thread makes me want to scrounge up all this old stuff.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's nice is every system (except Atari) has some way to to composite video (i.e. the yellow wire) out of the AV port. Some, like the Commodore 64 and SNES, can even do S-Video without cracking the system open.

Old systems seem great for getting in to the hardware thang. Repairing, replacing connectors, or adding new ones. Many parts can be found at Radio Shack, or assimilated from cheap "Dollar Store" cables and goods. Worst case if you destroy one, you grab a new one off Craigslist for $20. Even those Atari in a joystick, Sega Genesis in a controller, Commodore 64 in a joystick devices have plethoras of modding opportunities.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Collection needs: Atari 2600. I need to figure out which one to buy. And perhaps a TurboGrafx 16, but I may just do the switch mod to the PC Engine Duo-R.


CD32? CD-i?

--Jon
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then you need to go obscure and get a 3DO, Jaguar, and JVC X'eye.
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PoV
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonA wrote:
CD32? CD-i?

Sirocco wrote:
Then you need to go obscure and get a 3DO, Jaguar, and JVC X'eye.

Amiga, Apple II, Atari ST, MSX, and ZX Spectrum too. Maybe even the FM Towns and PC FX.

But 'for now' at least, I wanted to go with systems that had some significance to me growing up. Short of the Amiga and Apple II that I did play games on once, I've never touched any of these systems. Some for obvious locale reasons, but others I just never encountered.

The Colecovision and Intellivision I did run in to, but gaming was defined for me by the Commodore 64, the NES, and the Gameboy. That, and I think the Atari 2600 covers the first generation for me. 6502's are first on the agenda, when I get around to hacking some stuff together (C64, Atari, NES, TurboGrafx, SNES "sorta").
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



An older photo, but my portable collection is no different.

From left to right, top row:
- Gameboy Advance SP
- Nintendo DS (Phat)
- Zodiac 2 (i.e. 128 MB RAM/ROM as opposed to 64 MB)
- Cybiko (Lame B&W system with an antennae)
- PSP (Phat)

Next row:
- 2x Gameboy Advance (the first I inherited from my brother, both have Afterburner front light mods)
- Neo Geo Pocket Color with Shock & Rock (i.e. Battery + Rumble Motor)
- Neo Geo Pocket (B&W)
- iPod 80GB (I had to fill space)

Next row:
- JXD 301 (that little device we were talking about several months back)
- Wonderswan Color
- Wonderswan (B&W)
- GP32
- VMU (Dreamcast)

Last row:
- Gameboy (I think I broke the LCD screen cable way back)
- Gameboy Pocket ("Modern" B&W Gameboy)
- Gameboy Color (Technically superior to the NES. Made several games for)
- Game Axe (a *cough* portable NES)


No Game Gear, Nomad, Lynx, Game.com, N-Gage, Gizmondo, or TurboExpress.

I could *maybe* see myself getting a Game Gear one day, but I was always a Gameboy kid.

Short of a GP2x, Pandora, and slim DS/PSP's, I think my collection is fine. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh my GOSH! :)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm hardcore. :)
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